Future of Digital Education panel

	The Future of Digital Education Panel Discussion on Berkman Island November 13, 2006 ___________________________________ The following are (slightly edited) transcripts from a virtual panel discussion convened at Berkman Island in Second Life on November 13, 2006. The panel consisted of: Rebecca Nesson of Harvard Law School (aka Rebecca Berkman) Doug Thomas of USC's Annenberg School for Communication (aka Doctor Ludovico) Michael Eisenberg of the University of Washington Information School (aka MB44 Husky) Henry Lowood of Stanford University (aka Liebenwalde Ware). The panel was moderated by Steve Anderson of the USC School of Cinematic Arts (aka Ironman28 Tenjin). ___________________________________

	Also present in the audience: Eon Berkman = Charles Nesson Delilah Pomegranate = Tara McPherson Fembot Zeno = Anne Balsamo Shimaki Shikami = Sarita Yardi Geoff McG Xi= Geoff McGovern Aphilo Aarde = Scott MacLeod ___________________________________	Audio interviews with each panelist: Rebecca Nesson (14 min.) Henry Lowood (15 min) Doug Thomas (16 min.) Michael Eisenberg (16 min.) Selections from all interviews (17 min)
[16:01] You: Ok, I think we're good to go! [16:01] Doctor Ludovico: 4:01, wewt. Impressive. [16:02] You: so, welcome everyone to today's discussion of the future of digital education [16:02] You: I'd like to thank both the MacArthur foundation for sponsoring htis [16:02] You: and Rebecca Nesson for hosting us here at Berkman island [16:02] You: Rebecca, do you want to say anything about ground rules? [16:03] You: or more like protocols, I guess [16:03] Rebecca Berkman: yes. [16:03] Rebecca Berkman: For the purpose of keeping things orderly, we'd like to ask everyone not to use chat until we get to the question and answer session. [16:03] You: good...anything else? [16:03] Rebecca Berkman: That will be after a few questions for the panel. [16:03] You: right...I will introduce our panelists [16:04] You: and ask a couple of questions [16:04] Rebecca Berkman: In the meantime, if you want to chat with each other, please use IM to do so. [16:04] Rebecca Berkman: And if you have questions, please IM Rufus Bedlam. [16:04] Rebecca Berkman: one more thing. [16:04] Rebecca Berkman: We will be playing audio. [16:04] Rebecca Berkman: Please make sure you have audio turned on. [16:04] Rebecca Berkman: Go to Edit ->Preferences->Audio and Video to turn it on. [16:04] MK Snowdrop: is that a special setting ? [16:05] Rebecca Berkman: When we play it, a little box will appear at the bottom of your screen that says "Music control" [16:05] Rebecca Berkman: ok, that's all. [16:05] You: great, thank you, Rebecca! [16:05] You: so, after the first few questions, we will open it up to questions from the audience [16:06] You: since we are all here as avatars... [16:06] You: it might help to say who everyone is... [16:06] You: on my right is Doug Thomas...aka Doctor Ludovico [16:06] You: Doug teaches at the USC Annenberg School for Commuunication [16:06] Doctor Ludovico waves [16:07] You: on his right is Michael Eisenberg [16:07] You: aka MB44 Husky [16:07] You: Michael Eisenberg is a professor in the University of Washington INformation School [16:07] You: on my left is Rebecca Nesson [16:08] You: (whom many of you may know) [16:08] You: Rebecca teaches here at the Harvard Law School [16:08] You: and runs the CyberOne class [16:08] You: on her left is Henry Lowood [16:08] You: aka Liebenwalde Ware [16:08] You: Henry Lowood is a curator of the history of science and technology at Stanford University [16:09] You: so I thinbk we should starrt [16:10] You: We have a lot to talk about and we have to stop promptly at 5:00 [16:10] You: so.. this panel is a part of the online discussions that go along with the MacArthur foundation's initiative on digital media and learning [16:10] You: MacArthur is investging heavily in this area and is trying to build a field around the things that this panel has been working on [16:11] You: so...my first question to the panel is... [16:11] You: ...what about this is really new? [16:11] You: dowe need a field that defines what we are doing? [16:11] You: ...when we teach in Second Life or other virtual learningn evnironments? [16:12] You: and please feel free to all respond at once! [16:12] You: (a rare advantage of text discussion) [16:12] Doctor Ludovico: Hmmm, could we start with a bigger question, that seems too narrow and focused. [16:12] You: ok...in the interviews I did with you all, a number of themes emerged... [16:12] MB44 Husky: the very idea of field is increasingly irrelevant. [16:12] Rebecca Berkman: I have some ideas about that one too though... [16:13] You: ok...good [16:13] Liebenwalde Ware: are any two of us in the same field? [16:13] Rebecca Berkman: I agree with MB44. [16:13] Sariah Chihuly: well there are alot of disciplines out there, I think it is natural to want a digital discipline, if nothing else. [16:13] Rebecca Berkman: I'm not sure there is any need for a field for this. [16:13] MB44 Husky: yuck. [16:13] You: say more, Mike (MB44) [16:13] Fembot Zeno: I myself am not in a single field. [16:13] MB44 Husky: digital doesn't make a field. [16:13] You: right...it seems like some of this defies the logic of disciplines and fields [16:13] MB44 Husky: a field is a way of studying, a way of looking at the world. [16:13] Rebecca Berkman: \me nods [16:14] Sariah Chihuly: why not? and in a way, using digital spaces like sl is a way of looking at the world [16:14] MB44 Husky: increasingly, we need to bring multiple views, multiple fields together. [16:14] Doctor Ludovico: In many ways nothing is new. For me education has always been about imagination and SL is a space which is excellent for exercising the imagination, it is a tool, like a book or a lecture, capable of doing things quite different from books and lectures. [16:14] Doctor Ludovico: So in that sense, it is new. [16:14] You: are there advantages to being able to identify a field around digital education? [16:14] Liebenwalde Ware: i bet they are all over the map in terms of disciplines [16:14] You: that's a great, point, Henry [16:14] Sariah Chihuly: where there is difference there are dollars. [16:14] Fembot Zeno: Who's henry? [16:14] You: what draws the experiences of this panel together is a technology [16:15] Red Cascabel: What is different about this? It's just text chat with some cute animations (which aren't adding anything to the content). [16:15] You: Henry is Liebenwalde [16:15] MB44 Husky: I look at the world (even this world) through "information-colored" glasses. [16:15] Fembot Zeno: Not even cute animations :-) [16:15] You: the specifici experiences are quite different [16:15] Rebecca Berkman: At this point we are doing so much exploration, I think it is too soon to try to corral it into any particular theoretical framework. [16:15] You: I agree, Rebecca [16:15] Paul Paravane: actually, I think the thongs add a lot [16:16] Paul Paravane: as does the anonymity of the space [16:16] You: perhaps we could wait until the Q/A section for comments [16:16] Rebecca Berkman: Those not on the panel, please hold your comments or use IM until we get to teh Q&A period. [16:16] You: thank you [16:16] Jakku Parrott: sorry,but your taking over each other,we cant read athing [16:16] You: a lot happened in the last few seconds...I hafve to read transcripts [16:16] Jakku Parrott: too fast to read [16:16] You: try opening your history... it's all there [16:17] Deivu Reddevil: try shuting up and letting others talk, thanks [16:17] Rebecca Berkman: Click "history" to get a log of the chat. [16:17] Rebecca Berkman: And PLEASE be quiet if you are not on the panel. [16:17] MB44 Husky: so, in terms of perspectives, we each probably bring different perspectives to this topic. That's healthy. [16:17] You: I'd like to come back to the idea of imagination, Doug [16:18] You: because it does seem like there is an interesting difference betweeen this and other forms of online learening [16:18] Doctor Ludovico: I think we are witnessing some differences now between SL and a "normal" classroom or speaking event :) [16:18] Liebenwalde Ware: well, for one thing it is interesting that some of the audience is complaining about too much being said [16:19] MB44 Husky: rather than compare this and f2f, what about this and videoconferencing... for example, [16:19] Liebenwalde Ware: when we have been trying for years to get students, say, just to participate at all [16:19] MB44 Husky: I find videoconferencing to accentuate the distance. [16:19] Liebenwalde Ware: that's progress, right there [16:19] MB44 Husky: but - this "feels" like we are in a similar "place." that's helpful. [16:19] Rebecca Berkman: It certainly takes a while to get used to the multi-threadedness of the conversations in SL. [16:19] Rebecca Berkman: But I've come to like that a lot. [16:19] You: I'm also interested in what you said, Mike, about multiple views [16:19] You: (which seems appropriate to this situation) [16:19] Liebenwalde Ware: yes, but it's remarkable to see how many voices participate [16:19] Red Cascabel: Can you be specific? Someone said this is new and someone said this is different. What, specifically, is new and different? It's just text chat. [16:19] You: why do you like it, Rebecca? [16:20] Liebenwalde Ware: compared to say the forums of 6 or 7 years ago [16:20] Doctor Ludovico: There, that is new and different [16:20] MB44 Husky: we seem to be really underutilizing the graphics and place.. [16:20] MB44 Husky: the text is almost separate. [16:20] You: Perhaps Henry was right that we should be specific about the contexts in which we are using these technologies/techniques [16:20] Doctor Ludovico: Touch the box, get a t shirt, wear it or don't, think about what it means or don't [16:21] MB44 Husky: Is there any way to have the "speaker" somehow identified graphically? [16:21] Rebecca Berkman: I like that it is possible for people to carry on multiple conversations at once, linking to the ideas they find interesting. [16:21] Doctor Ludovico: There is an entirely different use of imagination when you build something and when you share it, sell it, give it away [16:21] You: perhaps some specific examples? [16:21] Jakku Parrott: the box is gone,i cant get a t shirt :[ [16:21] Rebecca Berkman: I also like that people have the chance to compose what they want to say without everyone waiting for them. [16:22] Rebecca Berkman: It makes it possible to do more pre-editing of your comments before putting them in the discussion. [16:22] You: yes, it can be overwhelmming [16:22] Doctor Ludovico: Learning in SL is not just about interpreting, it is about production as well, or at least it can be. [16:22] You: what kind of production? [16:22] You: (apparently something other than text chat?) [16:23] Liebenwalde Ware: well, that is closely tied to the difference between a 3-d web and a 2-d web [16:23] Doctor Ludovico: I would imagine that people who built the Berkman Center in SL, especially if they were students, feel a different connection to it than people who use it or visit [16:23] Liebenwalde Ware: in this 3-d space we can produce "texts" that people can walk through, experience, touch, visualize [16:23] Liebenwalde Ware: that has to have an effect on teaching and what can be done here [16:23] You: that seems fair... [16:23] You: Rebecca, can you speak to that, based on the CyerONe class? [16:24] Rebecca Berkman: I think those who spend time here at berkman develop a sense of ownership of the place, even if they didn't build it. [16:24] Rebecca Berkman: i certainly have. [16:24] You: right...we have colonized it for this panel! [16:24] Rebecca Berkman: And we certainly have a sense of community in the class. [16:24] Rebecca Berkman: the interactions that happen before and after classes are very important for that. [16:24] You: you made the point in your interview, though, Henry, that the 3D web also relies on the 2D web [16:24] Doctor Ludovico: That may not translate to "knowledge" in the restricted sense, but it creates a sense of learning that I call "dispositional" [16:25] Liebenwalde Ware: yes, it does [16:25] MB44 Husky: so - would all agree that there is a sense of place - of being in the same place? [16:25] Liebenwalde Ware: i don't think the sense of community can survive without that [16:25] Rebecca Berkman: if we were just doing a videoconference, no one would be htere before or after class or when you came to do work. [16:25] Rebecca Berkman: and that community would not develop. [16:25] You: so, for now, at least, the two seem to work well together [16:25] Liebenwalde Ware: yes, i think of SL as an augmentation, not a replacement [16:25] You: Rebecca, the course, website and wiki are all important components of CyberOne [16:25] Rebecca Berkman: i do not mean to claim that this shoudl be used to the exclusion of other technologies. [16:25] You: right [16:25] Rebecca Berkman: our class combines SL with many web technologies. [16:26] You: yes...and Mike, you also talked about the integration of multiple distance technologies in the extension program at Washington [16:26] Rebecca Berkman: however, i have begun to think of my web courseware as an augmentation of SL, rather than the other way around. [16:26] Rebecca Berkman: this is where the real action happens in CyberOne. [16:27] You: multiple channells of communication, along with multiple viewpoints [16:27] You: but I think the social dimension is very important [16:27] MB44 Husky: yes, we use multiple technologies - mostly asynchronous right now. BUT - we need a way to interact more meaningfully in real time. Beyond chat. [16:27] You: does this qualify? [16:27] MB44 Husky: yes - it could. [16:28] MB44 Husky: but...we need a simpler way to have guests participate. [16:28] Rebecca Berkman: People often think this is more impersonal than video, but in a way it allows a wider latitude for self-expression. [16:28] You: I agree [16:28] Rebecca Berkman: because we can make our avatars however we want. [16:28] Liebenwalde Ware: why more impersonal? [16:28] MB44 Husky: default avatars, easy navigation, simple set of commands. [16:28] Liebenwalde Ware: I don't get that [16:28] Rebecca Berkman: people certainly use visual cues in here to make connections and choose who to relate to. [16:29] Doctor Ludovico: For me, the killer ap of SL for education is to allow people to do things they can't do in RL, not to try to make SL mimic f2f or interpersonal interaction. [16:29] You: there is a limited range of gestural expressions possible [16:29] Rebecca Berkman: people think video is the "real you" and avatar is not. [16:29] You: agreed, Doug (Ludovico) [16:29] Liebenwalde Ware: hmm [16:29] MB44 Husky: I disagree that video is the "real you." [16:29] Chimalli Jimenez: bravo ludovico [16:29] Rebecca Berkman: avatars are limited, like gesture would be a great addition, but they are very expressive. [16:29] You: it seems like part of the field-building question, then is about specificity [16:29] You: (not to return to that necessarily) [16:29] Liebenwalde Ware: what you mean is that MORE expression is needed [16:30] Rebecca Berkman: i don't agree with that either MB44, but I hear it a lot. [16:30] Liebenwalde Ware: some can be added via scripts, etc. [16:30] MB44 Husky: Again, the key to me is being in the same "place" at the same time. [16:30] Liebenwalde Ware: but you can bet there will be enhancements to allow people to add their own animations, gestures, etc. [16:30] Rebecca Berkman: there are already. [16:30] You: yes...I would argue that the sense of presence right now is fairly powerful [16:30] Liebenwalde Ware: yes, it's an obvious way to go [16:30] Rebecca Berkman: those who aren't young in SL tend to use them much more and more effectively. [16:31] MB44 Husky: we need mechanisms to facilitiate the group experience - e.g., how about a backchannel here for the audience? [16:31] You: yes, would someone like to set up a backchannel? [16:31] You: generational developments were a common subject in the interviews [16:31] Rebecca Berkman: we are building a courtroom that will have the backchannel that you are looking for. [16:31] MB44 Husky: an easy way to raise my hand and be called on. [16:31] Rebecca Berkman: there are other ways to do it too. [16:31] You: I actually prefer front-channels [16:32] MB44 Husky: (just a little linearity would be okay). [16:32] You: we have multiple linearities! [16:32] Liebenwalde Ware: the space has much to do with the way people act in it [16:32] Rebecca Berkman: linearity doesn't work that well in chat because it takes too long. [16:32] MB44 Husky: I taught a f2f class the other day with all students having laptops and we had a backchannel going. It added signfiicantly to the depth of the class discussion. [16:32] Liebenwalde Ware: this is a relatively formal space we are in right now [16:32] Liebenwalde Ware: so I would expect, as an audience member, that the panelists talk [16:32] You: true, Henry (Liebenwalde) [16:33] Liebenwalde Ware: however, there are other spaces that work differently [16:33] Doctor Ludovico: One of the things I believe we have lost in education is the learning part of the equation. We focus so much on teaching we subordinate the idea of learning to it. [16:33] Liebenwalde Ware: having a spectrum is fine [16:33] You: yes...the balance between order and chaos is important... [16:33] Doctor Ludovico: SL provides an opportunity to reverse that to some degree [16:33] You: order is not necessarily the goal [16:33] Liebenwalde Ware: right [16:33] You: say more about that, Doug (Ludovico) [16:33] Liebenwalde Ware: but sometimes you want order [16:34] Liebenwalde Ware: in RL the range of possibilities on a campus is not so wide [16:34] You: I kind of like controlled chaos [16:34] Liebenwalde Ware: most classrooms look like this [16:34] Rebecca Berkman: For instance, here we have not really been able to focus on the issues of the panel because we're stuck in our process. [16:34] Rebecca Berkman: I suspect if we opened up for questions, the audience would not be sure yet what to ask us about... [16:34] You: in your interview, Doug, you talked about teaching in a virtual environoment as learning how to get out of the way of the students [16:35] Doctor Ludovico: Good teaching is often invisible, we help students learn when we are at our best. SL removes the burden of taking our "knowledge" and transfering it our students. [16:35] Liebenwalde Ware: which is not to say they wouldn't have anything to say ... [16:35] You: that's true, Rebecca, but the process is also part of the topic in this case! [16:35] Rebecca Berkman: Agreed, Liebenwald. [16:35] You: yes...should we focus a bit? [16:36] You: the ostensible topic is the "future" [16:36] Rebecca Berkman: In that case, I think many of our audience members are more experienced with how to do this than some of us are! [16:36] You: a segue! [16:36] You: perhaps this would be a good time to open it up to questions [16:36] You: (one at a time) [16:36] You: (just kidding) [16:37] Fembot Zeno: I find this forum a bit maddening because I really want to see something...i.e., the person who is speaking [16:37] Holly Suisei: One of you used the term "dispostional" earlier -- could you say more about that? [16:38] Chimalli Jimenez: how can this be more participatory with no shared back channel? we be mute [16:38] You: I agree, Fembot [16:38] Doctor Ludovico: I can talk about that a little. [16:38] Rebecca Berkman: I have foudn small groups to be the best for discussion in SL. [16:38] Rebecca Berkman: It allows everyone to participate withotu being too confusing. [16:38] MK Snowdrop: I liked what someone had to say about 3-D adding a sense of place that video conferencing doesn't and I agree, but what advantages do you see for sense of place? Simulations or Role play for example [16:38] Doctor Ludovico: I believe that learning is a process of building dispositional stances towards the world, towards knowledge, it is a set of practices and ways of seeing more than a set of facts or data. [16:39] Red Cascabel: I agree with Fembot. It is difficult to know who is speaking. (Or who the panelists are—I know they were introduced at the beginning but perhaps their real names can be displayed for the purposes of this conversation.) [16:39] Aphilo Aarde: I've enjoyed group discussions with mid-size groups as well. [16:39] You: sorry...I will try to insert real names more [16:39] You: please continue with your responses [16:39] You: Doug Thomas = Doctor Ludovico [16:39] You: Henry Lowood = Liebenwalde Ware [16:39] You: Rebecca Nesson = Rebecca Berkman [16:39] You: Michael Eisenberg = MB44 Husky [16:39] Liebenwalde Ware: i can talk a little about sense of place [16:39] Liebenwalde Ware: but we should probably finish the first question [16:39] Doctor Ludovico: And when we teach, we instill those things, for good or ill. Games and virtual worlds are not any better or worse at transmitting facts, but I believe they are excellent at creating dispositions [16:40] Holly Suisei: thanks, Ludovico! [16:40] Aphilo Aarde: I'll post a recent nyt article on the future of the web toward the end of this, when I have a little more free memory [16:40] Doctor Ludovico: And often in classrooms, we end up teaching students how to see things through the lens of "classrooms," hence the often asked question "Is this on the test?" [16:40] Shimaki Shikami: The backchannel can offer the benefit of anoymity for those in class who feel shy/stupid/embarassed to ask questions to the group. [16:40] DJ Waki: plato defined education as the acquistion of knowledge .... weinberger defined knowledge as a never ending conversation ... we are in a period of transition from one to the other ... enjoy it ... we are here to experiment :) [16:40] Doctor Ludovico: Which, all in all, is a very good question when you think about what learning has become (he said cynically) [16:41] Doctor Ludovico: /endrant [16:41] Fembot Zeno: So I think one of the questions is: what are the dispositions that are being created now through the playng of games that we can access in our classrooms, in RL or 2ndL? [16:41] Liebenwalde Ware: i didn't quite get that [16:41] Liebenwalde Ware: what is the advantage of anonymity over the second identity of the avatar? [16:41] Liebenwalde Ware: Shimaki? [16:42] Chimalli Jimenez: shy kids can talk [16:42] You: yes, the question about disposition also raises the question of transferrence [16:42] MB44 Husky: our backchannel allowed students to synthesize independently of the front channel and raise ideas and questions that might not have come up. [16:42] Rebecca Berkman: To me, one of the most obvious benefits of a virtual world is the ability to bring together people who are not physically near each ohter. [16:42] Shimaki Shikami: Ah - well some avatars here are anonymized and some are not. [16:42] You: yes...I think it is a hybrid [16:42] Liebenwalde Ware: true, but isn't that just a choice? [16:42] Shimaki Shikami: I think a backchannel should offer both, depending on what the student wants to say/ask [16:42] Rebecca Berkman: It is a more difficult task to create ways to integrate this with a face-to-face class, but something that also is very promising. [16:42] You: what's interesting is that people can be as anonymous as they want to be [16:43] Delilah Pomegranate: How important will learning 'to make and to do' be in the (digital) future of learning, including coding? What are the affordances of SL in that regard for new modes of learning? [16:43] MB44 Husky: the point is to get beyond the mere transfer of data or even information. [16:43] Aphilo Aarde: Also the quality of the chats are potentially as rich as voice to voice and person to person, because one can read all the lines of reasoning, and emotions may play less of a role. Virtual Platonic dialogues? [16:43] Fembot Zeno: But in a classroom, do I, as a teacher, want anonymity, or accountability? [16:43] You: Doug, your class next semester is all about making things in SL, right? [16:43] Doctor Ludovico: Yes, it is [16:43] Delilah Pomegranate: Tell us more, Doug/Ludovico [16:43] Rebecca Berkman: yes MB44, and at least for distance education, SL has made that much easier to do. [16:43] MB44 Husky: making or doing is fine. I personally focus on thinking. [16:43] Liebenwalde Ware: Fembot, re: anonymity. I agree with you. [16:44] You: Fembot, I think we want a combination [16:44] You: and I think the most interesting anonymity is not necessarily unaccountable [16:44] Liebenwalde Ware: that's an interesting topic -- anonymity and accountability [16:44] Doctor Ludovico: And thinking through what it means to connection productive dispositions to learning [16:44] Doctor Ludovico: The class will have the students read 5 books. Each 3 weeks, the students need to build something that embodies the work. The third week, the author will come to discuss with them what they have created [16:45] Delilah Pomegranate: fascinating: is this for undergrads? [16:45] Doctor Ludovico: No, for MA students in our new online communities program [16:45] Fembot Zeno: When the back channel is used for interactions and not for sniping. One supports the collective effort, the other erodes it. [16:45] You: right! [16:45] Shimaki Shikami: same as f2f vs SL, anonymity and accountability have different roles in backchannel [16:45] Shimaki Shikami: eg, accountability for assessment is necessary [16:45] Aphilo Aarde: Avatar anonymity in SL can be more like wearing a mask, than full anonymity, because avatar's develop a history. [16:45] You: good point, Aphilo [16:45] Liebenwalde Ware: fembot, what about the behaviors at the beginning of this panel. How do you feel about the audience speaking over the panelists? [16:45] Shimaki Shikami: but if a teacher is lecturing and 10 students don't understand and don't want to be the one to raise their hand, can all vocalize it in the backchannel and a TA can "bubble" the question up to the teacher [16:46] Liebenwalde Ware: can that be positive? [16:46] You: in your pre-panel interviews, several of you mentioned the shift toward shared authority in the classroom [16:46] You: sharing with informal learning networkds [16:46] You: and affiliation groups and networked information [16:46] Shimaki Shikami: backchannel can reduce signal to noise ratio and raise imprt issues [16:46] Rebecca Berkman: Although I think that it is too bad to have to do more than ask people to be quiet, I also think that we have a real challenge as panelists in an environment like this to be engaging enough to merit it. [16:47] Doctor Ludovico: Back channels can also turn into the land of snark [16:47] Rebecca Berkman: We are still at the very beginning of figuring out how to hold events like this. [16:47] Shimaki Shikami: while letting side questions that a single person answer "offline" (although it is really online!) without interrupting frontchannel [16:47] You: agreed, Rebecca...a lot is being lost or going by too quickly [16:47] Shimaki Shikami: Potential for snarkiness is quite large :) [16:47] Rebecca Berkman: Conference panels are usually not great in RL, but we have to do at least that well in SL and it may require a reformatting of the idea. [16:47] Liebenwalde Ware: ok, the question is: is it more of a contribution to snipe in back channel and let the speaker not know about it, than to contribute publicly and possibly interrrupt? [16:47] MB44 Husky: audience talkng wasn't the issue. It was not being aware of the intent of this meeting. [16:47] Liebenwalde Ware: we have ways of managing that in RL [16:48] Rebecca Berkman: I agree with MB44. [16:48] Liebenwalde Ware: many subtle signals, correct ways to chime in, etc. [16:48] Rebecca Berkman: Yes, but in RL we still do it very badly. [16:48] You: true...I know that I can re-scan the logs of this panel afterwards, though [16:48] Liebenwalde Ware: I think it's kind of a shame to push that all off on the back channel [16:48] Doctor Ludovico: And this meeting is violating a lot of SL conventions, where in public spaces it is mostly OK to drop in and start talking, to say "Hello, what's going on here" without fear of interruption [16:48] Rebecca Berkman: Even conferences on issues I raelly care about are usually really boring. [16:49] MB44 Husky: it's not a shame if it works. the point is not to compare to RL. It's to provide multiple dimensions for interaction and thought. [16:49] You: so we are talking about conventions that are emerging and changing in both RL and environemnts like SL [16:49] MB44 Husky: I agree re panels - I wish I had a backchannel to plenty of them. [16:49] Liebenwalde Ware: well, but as Doug said, there are conventions [16:49] Aphilo Aarde: But comparisons with RL offer fertile reference points and baselines for comparison. [16:50] Chimalli Jimenez: i really don't understand why academics are working so hard to make SL work like bad educational practices in RL [16:50] MB44 Husky: right - new conventions, Tenjin.... [16:50] DJ Waki: would be nice to hear more on imagination and less on identity in the time remaining [16:50] You: part of the goal of this panel is exactly to figure out how those new conventions should evolve [16:50] Rebecca Berkman: Well I would like to offer an imagination idea. [16:50] You: go, REbecca [16:50] MK Snowdrop: yes ideas for authentic applications [16:50] MB44 Husky: are we going to give THIS audience a bit of a chance to speak? only 10 min. left. [16:51] Liebenwalde Ware: yes, sure [16:51] You: Yes, please speak! [16:51] Doctor Ludovico: Yes, Chimalli, I agree with that. I think it is because we are very comfortable in familiar bad educational practices. I think SL shines a spotlight on them as well. [16:51] Liebenwalde Ware: but I think Rebecca was going to say something [16:51] Rebecca Berkman: One thing that I think we all share as educators who use technolgoy is a sense that we want to be able to have access to and experiemnet with the best technology out there. [16:51] Rebecca Berkman: But in many cases that technology is owned by for-profit companies who offer it to us in a way that our universities may not be happy with. [16:51] Aphilo Aarde: And realize innovations in new technologies like SL [16:51] You: yes, and right now there is a flood of new platforms all at once [16:52] You: I think, though, that it is not just about the technologies [16:52] You: but the cultural practices emerging around them [16:52] You: that have made these resonate powerfully within academia and elsewhere [16:52] Delilah Pomegranate: I actually like/learn from some conferences... Like new tech platforms, they can be done well or badly [16:52] MB44 Husky: "Technology is the answer. Uh...what was the question?" [16:52] Rebecca Berkman: I think that there is a great opportunity for educators to work together to ensure that we have access to the best technologies on terms that will work for our educational purposes. [16:52] Re Antelope: I thin k this environment could be a place for learners to create articfacts about a subject prior to a session with others. when others join, there can be show, tell discuss... [16:53] Red Cascabel: Ok, then I'll re-ask the question I asked earlier. What's "new" or "different" about this -- it is simply a text chat with some cute animations thrown in. (Yes, we can all talk together, but we can do this in iChat or Skype too.) [16:53] Delilah Pomegranate: Rebecca: what do you see emerging that might address issues of open-source or other academic platforms [16:53] Rebecca Berkman: We currently have a very bad method of getting technology at universities. [16:53] Rebecca Berkman: We either outsource to 3d part companies who then own the tech. [16:53] Doctor Ludovico: It is also a place to break down the old serious/fun, work/play binaries that I think have undermined a lot of educational practices since Taylorism required us to train people for factory work. [16:53] MB44 Husky: the graphic gives us a sense of place that is better than just text chat. [16:53] Rebecca Berkman: Or we try to develop in house and we do a bad job and duplicate a lot of effort. [16:54] You: right...several of the panelists cited the ownership and control of these platforms and technologies among their greatest concerns for the future [16:53] Doctor Ludovico: Which is a very bold, thoroughly unsupported assertion on my part. [16:54] Fembot Zeno: what is? i've lost the thread. [16:54] You: I'm having fun, Doug [16:54] Doctor Ludovico: Sorry, I keep running off on my own [16:54] MB44 Husky: If I get too close to you in SL, you will feel uncomfortable. [16:54] MB44 Husky: That's different. [16:54] Rebecca Berkman: If educators are going to have a future using technology we need to change that. [16:54] Delilah Pomegranate: Rebecca: I sense you are pushing toward a 3rd mode...what might it be? Consortial? [16:54] Rebecca Berkman: Yes, Delilah. [16:54] Aphilo Aarde: What do you suggest Becca? [16:54] Doctor Ludovico: <-bad panelist [16:54] Rebecca Berkman: I think that could work. [16:55] Liebenwalde Ware: Don't beat yourself up, Doug. ;0 [16:55] MB44 Husky: There's an emotional side to SL, beyond the text. [16:55] Rebecca Berkman: I would prefer to see universities pool their substantial resources to develop in a coordiated way. [16:55] Delilah Pomegranate: I know Mellon wants to explore this and I suspect MacArthur too. [16:55] Liebenwalde Ware: what do you mean by coordinated, Rebecca? [16:55] Doctor Ludovico: Too many ideas. Must. Control. Thoughts. [16:55] Rebecca Berkman: And to encourage developers to work off of a base that is not valuable because it is owned, but rather because it is shared and widely used. [16:55] Chimalli Jimenez: I think Ludovico's right. This demonstrates why one shouldn't hold panel discussions to evoke knowledge. [16:56] Fembot Zeno: Steve and I were interested in the question: the near-future of education....what sensibilities are now being developed that in students as they reiside in these new spaces that we could access as a pedagogical resource for the future? [16:56] MB44 Husky: agree! [16:56] Doctor Ludovico: Awesome question, Fembot [16:56] Aphilo Aarde: Some diversity and replication is useful to keep innovating. [16:56] Rebecca Berkman: I would like universities to identify shared tech goals and then pool resoruces to realize them and share the resutls. [16:56] Liebenwalde Ware: ok, i think i know who Fembot is ... [16:56] MB44 Husky: Agree, David. [16:56] Joe Petrel: Rebecca: Concrete action plan? [16:56] Fembot Zeno: The point of our piece for teh McArthur volume is to get peole to think about teh near future...or pedagogy...or education [16:56] DavidB Delphin: I'm appalled. Fancy avatars and 1969 chat. [16:57] Doctor Ludovico: Umm, who you callin' fancy? [16:57] You: that pesky anonymizing function again! [16:57] Rebecca Berkman: Joe...ideally coming soon. [16:57] Liebenwalde Ware: Rebecca, do you mean that SL is not adequate for the tasks of interest? That universities need to make their own sorts of worlds? [16:57] MB44 Husky: Again, I agree - how can we improve the interactions? the conversations? [16:57] Rebecca Berkman: Well, I know that some universities are uncomfortable with the ToS. [16:57] Liebenwalde Ware: in other words, is the creativity in the base technology or in what people make of it? [16:57] GeneKoo Li: DavidB, why should a 3D space NOT be about space? Is thinking about this as a glorified chatroom underselling the potential for pedagogical use? [16:58] DavidB Delphin: Visit http://www.holocenechat.com/ to see a ppt about what's all wrong here. [16:58] Doctor Ludovico: ZOMG! Finally someone with all the answers!!! [16:58] Oberon Octagon: Wow! A powerpoint, people! [16:58] Rebecca Berkman: I know some people would like to try some features that don't exist and that we can't hurry up (perhaps) [16:58] Liebenwalde Ware: does SL not allow enough in terms of a possibility space for universities to generate what they need within it? [16:58] Aphilo Aarde: What about a open source/ university collaboration - metaverse/ metaworlds with the resources of universities? [16:58] Rebecca Berkman: Basically, I think we want the freedom to use the technology as a tool. [16:58] Shimaki Shikami: Can it work bottom up in which students incorporate their own experience in the classroom, ie creating a student-driven IRC backchannel or SL or <insert medium here>? [16:58] You: to return to Fembot's question -- the point is not to oversell the present [16:59] You: but to look at what is happeningn now in order to think more clearly about what might come next [16:59] Liebenwalde Ware: well, it's a very interesting set of issues [16:59] DavidB Delphin: Y'know, sarcasm would be more effective in a better world. [16:59] Rebecca Berkman: Not to have to focus on it too much, but to be able to focus on the teaching/education. [16:59] Fembot Zeno: I'm interested in the description of these new sensibilities.... [16:59] Fembot Zeno: or the old sensibilities that games and on-line worlds now make more accessible [16:59] Liebenwalde Ware: I'm not sure that universities have ever been quite this dependent on non-academic institutions [16:59] Re Antelope: there is a university based project working on Croquet - a 3D learning environment, no? [17:00] Rebecca Berkman: perhaps a student or at-large participant could say a bit about what CyberOne has been like as an experience. [17:00] Rebecca Berkman: to give a sense of the present state of things. [17:00] Liebenwalde Ware: so there should be more discussion about whether that's ok -- it might be [17:00] Fembot Zeno: yes=crocquet=uc berkeley [17:00] You: I hate to sound like a radio talk show host, but we are nearly out of time [17:00] You: some of our panelists had to leave at 5:00 [17:00] You: but we can continue to chat informally [17:00] Liebenwalde Ware: i plead guilty to that [17:00] Liebenwalde Ware: gtg [17:00] Doctor Ludovico: Alas, I do as well [17:00] GeneKoo Li: @ Fembot, by "sensibilities" do you mean the cultural attitudes that students have about learning that they shape through other experiences [17:00] Red Cascabel: Let's put our money where our mouth is. This is the FUTURE of education, yes? Let's see something that has real pedagogical value that utilizes the potential of this new technology. Panelists? [17:01] You: THANK YOU HENRY [17:01] Delilah Pomegranate: bye henry and doug. thanks. [17:01] You: THANK YOU DOUG [17:01] MB44 Husky: thanks for the opportunity. Gotta run. [17:01] MB44 Husky: bye all. [17:01] DavidB Delphin: Yes, thanks for hosting this. [17:01] You: THANKS, MIKE [17:01] Rebecca Berkman: Well, Red, I'd like to offer CyberOne as an example. [17:01] Aphilo Aarde: As an at-large participant, I've had the opportunity to engage in a number of free, state-of the-art technologies to join in this course. [17:01] Delilah Pomegranate: bye mike [17:01] Rebecca Berkman: I could talk about it for hours. [17:01] Rebecca Berkman: Thanks for organizing this Ironman. [17:01] Doctor Ludovico: Thank you all for coming, listening and responding [17:01] Delilah Pomegranate: I'd love to hear more about cyberone [17:01] Shimaki Shikami: I also would like to hera about CyberOne [17:01] Matt Roar: me too: cyberone [17:01] GeoffMcG Xi: cyberone is great! [17:02] You: yes, I suggest we adjourn the official panel [17:02] You: and people can hang around andn talk [17:02] Liebenwalde Ware: bye all, thanks for listening [17:02] Rebecca Berkman: i'll stick around to talk about cyberone w/ whoever is interested. [17:02] GeoffMcG Xi: i have tons of questions, becca [17:02] Sariah Chihuly: cyberone has been a great experience for me, too. [17:02] Delilah Pomegranate: It sounds like cyberone is working: tell us more [17:02] Aphilo Aarde: Yes, thanks Ironman [17:02] You: party on, Aphilo [17:02] Doctor Ludovico: Thanks Steve! [17:02] You: see you, Doug [17:03] GeoffMcG Xi: well, first, I think that the format of cyberone is really key for actiive learners [17:03] DavidB Delphin: How can there be padagogy when people cannot prioritize? When incoming infoarives in a scrolled jumble? [17:03] Sariah Chihuly: but I think one of the reasons it works is that it doesn't just take place here in LL? [17:03] Delilah Pomegranate: Doug : can't wait to hear about your class [17:03] Aphilo Aarde: Yes, Geoff [17:03] Doctor Ludovico: Thanks Delilah! [17:03] You: we talked earlier about processing multiple information streams [17:03] Delilah Pomegranate: tell about the cyberone format [17:03] Sariah Chihuly: well David, one of the reasons it works is that you can scroll up and down so you can go back and look at stuff someone said while you weren't looking. [17:03] GeoffMcG Xi: and that is i think the leverage in pedagogy that we are looking for. one cannot help but be an active learner in an SL environment. [17:04] Sariah Chihuly: and if you can touch type you can participate much more easily. [17:04] DJ Waki: agreed sariah [17:04] GeoffMcG Xi: and with teachers burning out with students who are uninterested in classroom pedagogy, SL is a new alternative. [17:04] Re Antelope: (Red, this was a beginning experiment for people who had not worked in this enviro to discuss it., not a demo of SL capabilities) [17:04] Aphilo Aarde: Cyberone's main forum is a wiki, from which 2 weekly videos are linked. [17:04] You: yes, I don't think anyyone thinks SL is the ultimate answer [17:04] You: but right now, I find it an interesting indicator [17:04] Sariah Chihuly: also, there is the communication which comes with your avatar -- just by walking into a space and sitting down to "chat", you are [17:04] Sariah Chihuly: doing something more than you can do in a chat room. [17:05] GeoffMcG Xi: so, i think that those of us here from CYberOne are all at-large members, yes? [17:05] Sariah Chihuly: and absolutely right on the new approach, getting me excited about learning, when I don't have to, is a good thing. [17:05] Red Cascabel: But does that "something more" have pedagogical value? Such that it could be the "future of education"? [17:06] Rebecca Berkman: Yes, it seems like we don't have any enrolled students here Geoff. [17:06] GeoffMcG Xi: that says quite a bit. we are the ones doing this out of interest, not for credit and a high paying job. [17:06] GeneKoo Li: Tetero is an enrolled student [17:06] Oberon Octagon: Is pedagogy a necessary value in this kind of environment? [17:06] Delilah Pomegranate: this is my first 2nd life attempt but i think i can already see pedagogical uses [17:06] Sariah Chihuly: you know, I am one of those who like the video conferencing technologies and that sort of thing -- [17:06] Rebecca Berkman: Ah yes, Tetero! [17:06] Rebecca Berkman: Let me say a few words about the CyberOne format and then try to give my idea of what it offers that is now. [17:06] Aphilo Aarde: As a cyberone participant, one of the most enjoyable and rich experiences has been coming together and chatting in SL. [17:06] Rebecca Berkman: CybeOne is an RL and SL class. [17:06] GeneKoo Li: Oberon, what do you mean by whether pedagogy is necessary? [17:06] Sariah Chihuly: but I feel more connected to my colleagues and fellow students and teachers here, so yes, I would say it is a new thing [17:07] Rebecca Berkman: We have 50 Harvard law students who meet for a lecture class twice a week and it is videotaped. [17:07] Rebecca Berkman: We have 30 Harvard Extension School students who watch the videos and come to meetings here in SL where we have discussions. [17:08] Rebecca Berkman: And we have a large number of at-large participatns who are not actaully enrolled in teh class at all but participate through the website and the SL meetings b/c they are itnerested. [17:08] Rebecca Berkman: (sorry for many typos) [17:08] GeoffMcG Xi: np [17:08] Rebecca Berkman: As I was saying before, the biggest difference for me is in the quality of the distance education experience. [17:08] Sariah Chihuly: I would say though one thing we haven't had is a lot of interaction between the at large and the enrolled students, I wonder if there has been a lot between extension school and law school? [17:08] Rebecca Berkman: I have taught several distance education courses at the Harvard Extension School. [17:08] Rebecca Berkman: We have used video, email and chat to communicate with students. [17:09] GeoffMcG Xi: its funny, i feel i have been getting a richer experience than the enrolled students [17:09] Rebecca Berkman: And it has not even come close to the level of intereaction that we have in SL. [17:09] Oberon Octagon: The learning that goes on in World of Warcraft involves sharing goals, assigning tasks, and learning digital skills. [17:09] Oberon Octagon: In WOW where's the pedgogy? [17:09] You: Oberon: Doug thomas talks about that in his interview on the MP3 player behind us [17:09] You: part of what is remarkable about CyberOne is that Rebecca has created an environment where people like me feel like they can ask to hold a panel here [17:09] Sariah Chihuly: yes, well we can do what we want. without worrying about a grade or keeping up. [17:09] GeoffMcG Xi: the enrolled students gripe over grading passs/fail or letter grade. we at larger people gripe about not being able to do more in class! [17:09] Sariah Chihuly: it is done for the joy of it. [17:09] Rebecca Berkman: I think one of the main reasons is that there is a lot of informal time around classes when people meet their fellow students and the instructors and have a chance to develop real relationships. [17:10] Aphilo Aarde: Because in SL, chats are prominent - the chat technology highlights the idea-exchange, lessening some of the distractions in RL.. [17:10] GeneKoo Li: @ Oberon, so do you mean to discuss whether a pedagogy needs to be explicit or can be built into the very tasks recommended by the space itself? [17:10] Rebecca Berkman: That goes way beyond anything that has ever happened in another distance course of mine. [17:10] Shimaki Shikami: do the enrolled students have the same positive experiences to share as sariah and others? [17:10] Oberon Octagon: Thumbs up, GKL! [17:10] Delilah Pomegranate: Many of the faculty I know are deeply suspicious of distance learning (worrying about universities doing it only for $$) but this seems to have real potential to address some access issues [17:10] GeoffMcG Xi: can SL be used to suppplement RL f2f education? [17:10] You: he argues that it's necessary to think about different kinds of pedagogical experiences in virtual learning environemnts [17:11] You: role playing games are just one model [17:11] GeneKoo Li: GeoffMcG, I hope that we can use SL to enhance F2F education and training -- there's no reason why not [17:11] Rebecca Berkman: I think one of the reasons the at-large participants really enjoy the expeirence is that they do spend the most time interacting with us in SL. [17:11] GeoffMcG Xi: i hope so too: im using SL in my class next semester [17:11] Sariah Chihuly: well, we also spend a lot of time watching the lectures, and doing some readings, at least I do. [17:11] Rebecca Berkman: But the Extension Students do too. [17:11] GeoffMcG Xi: ditto [17:11] GeneKoo Li: This is a great space for setting up simulations without having to build an entire engine [17:12] Rebecca Berkman: We are getting ready to use SL for an F2F class in the winter. [17:12] Rebecca Berkman: I'd love to tell you a bit about it. [17:12] Aphilo Aarde: Yes, Rebecca - SL has become one main focus in this course for me, in addition to watching the videos. [17:12] GeoffMcG Xi: i'd like to hear about it [17:12] Sariah Chihuly: definitely. [17:12] Rebecca Berkman: Because I think it also highlights some really different uses of the space. [17:13] Rebecca Berkman: My father, who is a prof at HLS, will be teaching a trial law class (focused on Evidence). [17:13] Sariah Chihuly: we are planning to use sl with an online course we'll be teaching next semester. I am definitely interested in where you see differences. [17:13] GeoffMcG Xi: aspeak of the devil! [17:13] Rebecca Berkman: One of the thigns taht is really hard to teach is how to object in court and waht grounds to object on. [17:13] Rebecca Berkman: It is much harder than it looks on law and order! [17:13] Rebecca Berkman: Ah, here he is now. [17:13] Rebecca Berkman: Eon Berkman. [17:13] GeoffMcG Xi: i get the same reaction with my mock trial team. [17:14] Aphilo Aarde: Spatial tropes are prominent in this 2D virtual environment, as they are in parts of the Berkman Center for Internet and Society's Mission statement [17:14] GeoffMcG Xi: objections are the hardest [17:14] Rebecca Berkman: So we are building a courtroom just on the northwest corner of the island. [17:14] Rebecca Berkman: Where we will be holding mock trials with the studnets as the lawyers and my father as the judge. [17:14] Rebecca Berkman: because of the typing in chat, the whole thing goes a bit slower. [17:14] Delilah Pomegranate: sounds fascinating, eon [17:14] Eon Berkman: in which i hope to teach how trials work from each and all of the participants points of view [17:14] Rebecca Berkman: So it gives the studeents that extra bit more time that they need to figure out whether to object and on what grounds. [17:15] Rebecca Berkman: And it also gives us a transcript of teh proceeedings. [17:15] Rebecca Berkman: on top of that, we are able to hold a more public education sessions. [17:15] GeoffMcG Xi: who needs stenographers? [17:15] Sariah Chihuly: in another way it might prove helpful to them, too -- as attention spans dwindle, this will give them experience chunking their arguments. [17:15] Rebecca Berkman: We will be inviting people to participate as jurors and witnesses. [17:15] GeoffMcG Xi: will the class be open to at-large students, Eon? [17:15] Rebecca Berkman: And we are buidling a classroom gallery behind the bar so that people can be spectators. [17:15] Rebecca Berkman: The people behind the bar will have their own backchannel discussion. [17:16] Rebecca Berkman: By backchannel, I mean that they will be able to talk to each other without being here in the courtroom area. [17:16] Eon Berkman: my plan at this point is to follow becca's lead; what she says makes sense i will do [17:16] Rebecca Berkman: but they will still be able to hear what is happening. [17:16] Eon Berkman: she is my teacher in second life [17:16] Eon Berkman: and in real life too [17:16] Aphilo Aarde: (and mine) [17:16] Rebecca Berkman: so I will be able to be in the gallery acting a teaching assistant to talk with people about what is happening in the trial. [17:17] Rebecca Berkman: we may also set it up so that we can try offering qeustions to the lawyers on cross examination! [17:17] GeoffMcG Xi: i'd be interested in that. [17:17] Eon Berkman: i'll bet the lawyers would be interested in that as well [17:17] Rebecca Berkman: Now i'm not great at the theoretical parts of this, but i know that if we wnated to organize this in RL it would be very difficult and very expensive. [17:17] Rebecca Berkman: And it would not be open to people in so many different locations. [17:18] Eon Berkman: perhaps we could get the question tool working in some way for second life? [17:18] Rebecca Berkman: By offering it here, we can have a great replica of a courtroom. [17:18] GeoffMcG Xi: that is your patent? [17:18] Rebecca Berkman: And we can have this backchannel gallery. [17:18] Rebecca Berkman: And built-in court reporing. [17:18] Rebecca Berkman: And beautiful props. [17:18] GeneKoo Li: Yes, in fact, this is precisely what we struggle with in offering hearing simulations for attorneys in our training programs [17:18] Rebecca Berkman: Absolutely everything we need, while still opening up as a free educational experience that anyone can join in. [17:19] Rebecca Berkman: to me that is really something different than what you can do in RL. [17:19] Eon Berkman: our patent, yes, we had this in mind all along (he says with fingers crossed) [17:19] Aphilo Aarde: One limitation being the number of avatars which can fit. [17:19] GeoffMcG Xi: very cool [17:19] Rebecca Berkman: hmm, no patent. [17:19] Rebecca Berkman: perhaps, aphilo, but it is also possible to relay the proceedings to other islands (with some wizardry). [17:20] Rebecca Berkman: or soemthing like that. [17:20] Rebecca Berkman: we could, in theory, have many galleries, each with a teaching fellow. [17:20] Rebecca Berkman: to me, the biggest limitation is language. [17:20] Sariah Chihuly: teaching galleries would be a very good idea. [17:20] Rebecca Berkman: we are only capable of doing it in English. [17:20] GeneKoo Li: If you built the court near a border, the next island over could be the gallery, actually physically separated [17:20] Dagmar Kojishi: With more than one island, you can build at the junction(s) and have everybody in one space, but the load spread across more than one sim. [17:20] Aphilo Aarde: Is there a way to lessen an 'avatar-print' on computing resources - an 'opaque-avatar' approach? [17:21] Dagmar Kojishi: GMTA, Gene. [17:21] Rebecca Berkman: So I guess for Red, what I would say is that this place just gives me (and lots of people) a million ideas of new things to try. [17:21] Eon Berkman: when can we organize a dry run? [17:21] Rebecca Berkman: Even if we could do all of them in RL too, we need this burst of new creativity about how to teach and learn. [17:21] Rebecca Berkman: It helps us to figure out what parts of our practice are good/necessary and which ones we can scrap or reinvent. [17:21] Aphilo Aarde: SL, in comparison and contrast with RL, is a rich idea-generator. [17:22] Rebecca Berkman: well, before we do a dry-run, dad, we need a court. [17:22] Sariah Chihuly: I agree completely with that -- [17:22] Rebecca Berkman: and let me use this opportunity to announce something very exciting. [17:22] Sariah Chihuly: you might be able to do a dry run here? [17:22] GeoffMcG Xi: why not in ames? [17:22] GeneKoo Li: @ Aphilo, I wouldn't discount RL quite so much... it's just we're so stuck in certain patterns [17:22] Rebecca Berkman: Ansible Berkman, who built basically every beautiful thing you see around you, has agreed to run the building project in a special way. [17:23] Eon Berkman: my thought as well, sariah [17:23] Rebecca Berkman: We are going to organize several volunteer building days when you can volunteer to come and work on the court. [17:23] Sariah Chihuly: will we have to have a certain level of proficiency? [17:23] Rebecca Berkman: and Ansible will do the design and will guide all fo us as volunteers in the build. [17:23] GeneKoo Li: I think what's interesting about doing the trial in SL using text is that one of the disadvantages of using a virtual space (lack of ability to convey kinetic actions) becomes a strenght when you're specifically focusing on the rules of evidence and not, [17:23] Rebecca Berkman: So we can also learn about building! [17:23] GeneKoo Li: e.g., method of presentation [17:23] Aphilo Aarde: Yes, but the 'morphability' of Sl inspires possibilities, compared with the seeming predicatability of RL [17:23] Sariah Chihuly: otherwise she is going to be spending a lot of time babysitting. [17:23] Eon Berkman: i understand someone has already volunteered to create my judicial robes! [17:24] Rebecca Berkman: We may set some prerequisite classes for you to take at Dreams before you come to the volunteer day. [17:24] Sariah Chihuly: what about the wig? [17:24] Rebecca Berkman: We're modeling the idea on Habitat for Humanity building. [17:24] Sariah Chihuly: oh right, that would be another country... [17:24] GeneKoo Li: (@ Aphilo, agreed, tho it's quite interesting sometimes how many "rules" of RL we take for granted and don't challenge) [17:24] Dagmar Kojishi: I missed it. What is Dreams? [17:24] Rebecca Berkman: Ah yes, buidling will also include some fashion design. [17:24] Rebecca Berkman: Chinadoll has been working on the judge outfit and could perhaps use some helpers. [17:25] John Parmelee: Is Dreams a place to learn about building? [17:25] Rebecca Berkman: Dreams is an island with lots of good building and scripting classes. [17:32] Rebecca Berkman: yes, well it seems that Red left, but he asked a good question that related to what Ironman asked at the beginning of this session. [17:32] Rebecca Berkman: Are we doing anything new? And if so, what? [17:32] Rebecca Berkman: I've given my 2 cents. [17:33] Rebecca Berkman: I wonder what others think. [17:33] Rebecca Berkman: I don't think it has to be framed a big theoretical change or anything--just anything that makes a difference. [17:33] Dagmar Kojishi: I think we face a reality situation of sorts. No method is as good as working one-on-one with a student. [17:33] Dagmar Kojishi: Every method since we came in from following Aristotle around has been an accommodation of sorts: too many students, too few professors, too little money, too little space. [17:33] GeoffMcG Xi: yes this is new. we are connecting in degrees unthought of before. [17:33] Aphilo Aarde: The CyberOne course acts, in a way, as an aggregator for understanding a whole variety of contemporary technologies. [17:34] Dagmar Kojishi: Correspondence courses, video courses, telephone courses, Web courses--none provide education the same way as classroom, and classroom doesn't provide it the same way as Socratic dialogue. [17:34] Eon Berkman: i'm excited about the idea of my students playing their podcasts here and maybe being present to participate in discussion to follow [17:34] Rebecca Berkman: do you think that 1on1 in SL could work? [17:34] Dagmar Kojishi: Something like SL certainly isn't perfect, but it is a step in the direction TOWARD greater connection between student and teacher, between student and student, and between student and material. [17:34] Rebecca Berkman: It seems to me that 1-on-1 is very good here. [17:34] Dagmar Kojishi: That can't be bad. [17:34] GeoffMcG Xi: aagreed, becca. [17:34] Dagmar Kojishi: In a way, it doesn't matter whether it's a good idea or not. It is going to happen. Our choice is to refuse to take part, or to take part and make it as good as it can be. [17:34] Aphilo Aarde: If the medium is the message, CyberOne suggests it's an aggregator. [17:34] Eon Berkman: :<) [17:35] Rebecca Berkman: I agree totally with yoru last comment Dagmar. [17:35] Dagmar Kojishi: I think the 1 on 1 brings things much closer to what I would think of as the ideal, and that overcomes many of the "challenges" of the medium. [17:35] Rebecca Berkman: that is why I don't want universities to get stuck without access to the best technologies. [17:35] Dagmar Kojishi: Exactly. [17:35] GeoffMcG Xi: so how do we change that becca? [17:35] GeoffMcG Xi: sariah and i have been thinking about how to act as coordinators for universities that want to follow CyberOne's lead. [17:35] Rebecca Berkman: I haven't done enough homework on it yet. [17:35] Delilah Pomegranate: yes, access seems key (and beyond universities to local high schools that aren'teven wired) [17:36] Rebecca Berkman: I am not sure what stops universities from using open source software. [17:36] GeoffMcG Xi: Would berkman be interested in a program proposal? [17:36] Dagmar Kojishi: I have wondered about that as well. [17:36] Eon Berkman: berkman is very interested in a program proposal [17:36] Rebecca Berkman: if it is only the reliability problem, then i think we can solve that by actually taking up the project of developing educational technologies in a more directed way. [17:36] Rebecca Berkman: but still keeping the code and the rights open and free. [17:36] Aphilo Aarde: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/business/12web.html?ei=5094&en=8e48853554d71a49&hp=&ex=1163307600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print [17:37] Delilah Pomegranate: this is exactly where we should push foundations like macarthur and mellon [17:37] Rebecca Berkman: in that way, universities coudl pay for develpment of anything they wanted withotu having to start from scratch. [17:37] Aphilo Aarde: Here's an url of a recent nyt article on the future of the web, which I mentioned earlier I would post. [17:37] Rebecca Berkman: and they could pool resources to do it. [17:37] Rebecca Berkman: and they could do it with in-house or outsourced developers. [17:37] Rebecca Berkman: yes, I agree Delilah. [17:37] Delilah Pomegranate: yes, mellon wants to be an aggregator, funding collaboration across universities [17:38] GeoffMcG Xi: well, i think all of those can be combined. if MacFound can support it, we can run a program at Berkman that coordinates a multi university sponsored program to bring more online content to at-large users [17:38] Rebecca Berkman: I actually want to propose this project to them. [17:38] Rebecca Berkman: But I'd like to put together a clear plan and have a group of educators from different universities make the proposal together. [17:38] You: that's a great idea [17:38] Aphilo Aarde: Yes. [17:38] GeoffMcG Xi: let's do it! this is actually sariah's idea that we haave been working on, so i dont want to credit claim./ [17:38] Delilah Pomegranate: Look for an RFP in early 2007! [17:38] Eon Berkman: open source metaverse, each iteration an experiment in governance [17:39] Shimaki Shikami: how would you say sakai does or doesn't fit in this model? [17:39] Eon Berkman: and education [17:39] Rebecca Berkman: I think virtual worlds are a little ways in the future, but there are some great efforts in the offing. [17:39] GeoffMcG Xi: so Eon, how do i pitch the proposal? [17:39] Aphilo Aarde: Sounds ideal, Eon [17:39] Rebecca Berkman: What is sakai? [17:39] Delilah Pomegranate: courseware mellon helped fund =sakai [17:39] Shimaki Shikami: open source educational environemnt [17:39] Shimaki Shikami: http://tinyurl.com/yy7yxm [17:40] Eon Berkman: becca will lead us [17:40] Shimaki Shikami: sakaiproject.org [17:40] Shimaki Shikami: eg, same goals if it isn't fulfilling what you are talking about, why not and how to overcome whatever challenges it couldn't? [17:40] Shimaki Shikami: (to play devil's advocate only... I am all for OSS educational materials) [17:41] Rebecca Berkman: Ah, thanks for bringing that up Shimaki. [17:41] Rebecca Berkman: The first step woudl be to find the existing open-source efforts in the areas the universities are interested in. [17:41] Rebecca Berkman: We woudl not want to start from scratch. [17:41] Shimaki Shikami: at berk was on ed tech committee and the bureaucracy to get anything into any classroom curriculum, etc was impossible! [17:42] Shimaki Shikami: they had brought on blackboard [17:42] Rebecca Berkman: But I think there are reasons (that I don't totally understand) why universities aren't going in this direction at this point. [17:42] Dagmar Kojishi: I hear rumors (maybe more than that) that SL is slated to go open source in a year or two. How much difference will that make? [17:42] Rebecca Berkman: they are afraid that they will end up with something unreliable. [17:42] Shimaki Shikami: well, entirely different quetsions of access and adoption [17:42] Shimaki Shikami: one is $$ and one is cultural [17:42] Shimaki Shikami: ? [17:42] Rebecca Berkman: they have determined first that picking a for-profit closed source provider would be better. (it wasn't) [17:43] Rebecca Berkman: and then that doing it in house woudl be better. (ti really really wasn't). [17:43] Rebecca Berkman: and now they should be looking for the next solution. [17:43] Bele Bellambi: you talked about sakai, so, what do you think about sloodle? [17:43] Delilah Pomegranate: mellon's committed to funding open source so maybe this will change [17:43] Shimaki Shikami: definitely agree that in house doesn't work in higher ed software [17:43] Shimaki Shikami: moodle? [17:43] Bele Bellambi: SL + moodle... [17:43] Rebecca Berkman: I think it is key to have an organization that sees the universities as their main and primary clients. [17:43] Shimaki Shikami: :) [17:43] Shimaki Shikami: i'd like to try it! [17:43] Dagmar Kojishi: At a recent conference in NMC, we heard that University of Illinois is shying away from SL because UI had a bad experience in losing control of Netscape. They are worried a student will come up with something, and UI will lose out on a... [17:43] Shimaki Shikami: i had decent experience with moodle in one class [17:43] Dagmar Kojishi: patent or something. Is it old-fashioned turf wars that is choking this? [17:44] Rebecca Berkman: Those people can work with the open-source community to do customization from the open-source tools currently avaialbel to make them what each university actually wants. [17:44] Rebecca Berkman: And to give them the control they clearly depend on. [17:44] GeoffMcG Xi: but that is the reason why we need open source [17:44] Rebecca Berkman: and perhaps to develop features that are lagging in open-source development. [17:44] Aphilo Aarde: How to engage the wikipedia model for educational tools? [17:45] Rebecca Berkman: All the resulting tools should also be open-source. [17:45] Rebecca Berkman: Regular old GPL style. [17:45] Aphilo Aarde: like an open-source SL . . . [17:45] Rebecca Berkman: (We are using Moodle for our course--it is quite good. Definitely better than the Harvard in-house courseware) [17:45] Rebecca Berkman: of course it does not provide everything. [17:45] Rebecca Berkman: universities also want virtual worlds, registration/pre-registration systems, all kinds of stuff. [17:46] Shimaki Shikami: Rebecca, would you agree that classroom culture in a law class is very different from most other higher ed classes and the use of mediums would be quite different as well? [17:46] Rebecca Berkman: open source SL would be amazing. [17:46] Rebecca Berkman: I am not sure how soon it will be in LL's best interest to go that way. [17:46] Rebecca Berkman: At a certain point their competitors may start to have better technology than they do, and then they will want to go open source to be able to compete better. [17:47] Rebecca Berkman: But until then they are just extending their advantage that comes from the growth in population and culture while they have the technology edge. [17:47] Dagmar Kojishi: And I don't know how "open source." But I think they are aware of such issues as Betamax/VHS where Sony tried to keep control, and Apple vs. Microsoft where Apple tried to keep control of the OS rather than licensing to others. [17:47] Rebecca Berkman: Croquet looks to me like an interesting open-source alternative effort. [17:47] Dagmar Kojishi: I'm not familiar with it. [17:47] Aphilo Aarde: Is it possible to bring Harvard's resources and influence to bear on developing the best open-source 'kernels' such as a metaverse, which would then feature centrally in open source development? [17:47] Bele Bellambi: ...the sloodle project: http://www.sloodle.com/ [17:48] Rebecca Berkman: I think LL may become interested in licensing their technology to univerisities so that they can install their own private worlds. [17:48] Rebecca Berkman: Yes, Aphilo. [17:48] Dagmar Kojishi: Would those worlds somehow connect to the larger world? Web 3.0? [17:48] Shimaki Shikami: I think social networking software would have a role in these tools as well [17:48] Aphilo Aarde: What precedents exist? [17:48] Rebecca Berkman: I think that we could bring a lift to certain open-source projects because we have some resources to spend on development. [17:48] Aphilo Aarde: Not GNU, not wikipedia. [17:49] Rebecca Berkman: We also provide steady employment for good open-source developers who are willing to work on educational projects. [17:49] Rebecca Berkman: Yes, definitely Shimake. [17:49] Aphilo Aarde: Where a university protects as 'open' what Apple and Microsoft ultimately limited through ownership? [17:49] Shimaki Shikami: MySloodleBook [17:49] Shimaki Shikami: SloodleSpace [17:50] Rebecca Berkman: So does anyone have any thoughts on why we're so much more able to have a conversation now than earlier? [17:50] Rebecca Berkman: We are still a pretty lage group. [17:50] Rebecca Berkman: And now we have no rules. [17:50] Dagmar Kojishi: I was thinking the same thing. Interesting. [17:50] Shimaki Shikami: how many here right now are newbies to SL? [17:50] Sariah Chihuly: well, we are smaller, I think. [17:50] Dagmar Kojishi: Are we more focused on exploring now, as opposed to making points? [17:50] Shimaki Shikami: learning curve prevents useful discussion? [17:50] Sariah Chihuly: and we don't have people who aren't familiar with us, in a way. [17:51] You: there were too many panelists [17:51] Shimaki Shikami: yes saraih [17:51] Aphilo Aarde: Is it a changed ethos of discourse? [17:51] Shimaki Shikami: agreed [17:51] John Parmelee: The penguin's gone [17:51] You: I made the exact mistake Doug talked about [17:51] Dagmar Kojishi: LOL [17:51] John Parmelee: You know penguins. [17:51] John Parmelee: Just kidding. [17:51] You: of trying to precisely recreate in SL the model of panels in RL [17:51] Rebecca Berkman: haha [17:51] Rebecca Berkman: It is very hard to start anywhere else! [17:52] Aphilo Aarde: Our styles of interlocution are more sympatico and question oriented. [17:52] Rebecca Berkman: But once we try that, we can learn from what doesn't work to try to make it better. [17:52] Shimaki Shikami: I think new technology + new discussion topic is too much. [17:52] Shimaki Shikami: Eg, as I IMed to Rebecca, a few people IMed me asking what a backchannel was [17:52] Rebecca Berkman: The thing is, RL panels are not usually very good either. [17:52] Sariah Chihuly: I think Shimaki has a point. [17:52] Shimaki Shikami: they didn't feel comfortalbe asking in the chat room [17:52] Aphilo Aarde: ...than the previous larger group. [17:52] Sariah Chihuly: lecture is good to do introductions to large groups, then the chat can happen. [17:52] You: I agreee, Shimaki, but I also like when form and content relate [17:52] Rebecca Berkman: It is very hard to get a meaningful discussion going between all the swelled-head ppl who thing they have SOMETHING to say--like me... [17:52] Dagmar Kojishi: At least they had a backchannel to check through; in RL, they might have just sat in ignorance. [17:53] Aphilo Aarde: You set a welcoming, affirmative tone, Rebecca. [17:57] Dagmar Kojishi: Thanks for the extra innings. [17:57] Johnny99 Gumshoe: thanks rebecca [17:57] You: thanks, everyone for coming! [17:57] Rebecca Berkman: thanks everyone for hanging out so long and thinking with us about all these ideas! [17:57] Rufus Bedlam: Yes, thank you Rebecca! [17:57] Rebecca Berkman: Everyone shoudl feel free to contact me about any of this stuff. [17:58] Aphilo Aarde: Thank you, Rebecca, very much. [17:58] Rebecca Berkman: And also free to hang around berkman island and make it your place. [17:58] You: bye, all